23 October 2023 Dearborn County Plan Commission Meeting Notes
Present: Dennis Kraus, Jr., Chairman, Russell Beiersdorfer, Jeff Hermesch, Mark Lehman, Joe Vogel, Jake Hoog, Dan Lansing, Jim Thatcher, and Eric Lang
Also Present: Nicole Daily, Planning and Zoning Director, and Andy Baudendistel, Attorney.
Approximately 23 citizens present including Tamara Taylor (The Beacon) and Mike Perleberg (One Dearborn)
Baudendistel read the Title VI statement as legally required.
For Zoning Maps- see ADMINISTRATIVE- for nearly 1.75 hour nearly transcribed discussion
ACTION ON MINUTES- September 25th Minutes- Approved with small correction changing “she” to “he’ on p4.
OLD BUSINESS: none
NEW BUSINESS:
Written Commitments associated with the 2023 Zone Map Amendment on property at the northwest corner of Stateline Road and Sneakville Road—specifically with respect to adding 2 full access points on Sneakville Road, originally approved only for one access point. Applicant/Owner: Abercrombie & Associates / Friendship State Bank Site Location: Corner of Stateline Road and Sneakville Road Parcel: #15-01-34-104-008.000-006 Township: Harrison Size: 3.128 acres Zoning: B-1, Local Business-
Nicole Daily presented. This is a request to change written commitments. This came in March 28, 2022 and they had. A favorable recommendation with written conditions and Commissioners approved. This was recorded formally. Since them Friendship State Bank bought a portion and is requesting the 2 access points. It is now B-1. It’s pretty flat piece of ground. This went to tech review. A traffic study was needed if there were 1000 vehicles per day. That criteria has not been met yet with the bank use. A title search had to be completed to be sure there were no covenants or restrictions on the property. None found. There was to be only 1 access from Stateline and 1 from Sneakville. The plan now is to have 2 off of Sneakville. The tech review thought that Sneakville was not as critical for having 2 access points as Stateline was. The one access point does line up with a driveway across Sneakville. If this is changed tonight- the commitments will have to rewritten , resigned , and recorded.They did suggest lining up the other driveway with Garden Green Blvd and would increase spacing with the access points. The other option per Listerman, Highway Engineer, they could have a restricted access with a Right in - Right out only for the one point. There are Indiana Codes for written commitments in their packets. Letters went out 11 sent and 10 delivered. One was not picked up by the property owner.
Lehman asked if there were driveway spacing requirements in the Commercial Zones? Daily said they were to be 150 ft on Sneakville and these were at 100 ft spacing. They could require a variance. The part to the north of the property will have to share theses same access points which is why Listerman was concerned for the safety issues beyond this bank request. A traffic study would be required of the combined uses generate the 1000 vehicle per day. The Skyline that will be accessing Stateline has some issues too.
Applicant presentation. They did provide a traffic analysis and showed it was well below the 1000 bpd. The circulation and traffic pattern - will have an ATM to north of the property via Stateline. They are not forced to go thru the drive-thru lane. He went thru the logistics of that internal traffic pattern.They had to cut property in half because of the flatness to get water diverted to 2 detention systems. They used the lowest points on the land. Worried that moving the entrance to the west will hurt ditch line drainage as they have limited space to capture water. They are OK with a R in R out - just not moving that one access. Discussion about peak traffic hours. There are about 80 cars total per peak time morning and afternoon. The question before the board is whether to allow the 2nd access.Chris Meyer from Friendship Bank said they own the entire property including to the north too. They will be careful with who and what use is there. It has not been divided into two lots.
Open Public Discussion- no one spoke on this- Closed Public Discussion
Board discussion- Beiersdorfer- the property to the north will be sold eventually. It could have been designed differently perhaps. Lang- did not want to steamroll anyone- wanted to hear what the otters thought. Lehman- they could say the north property could only access it vis Stateline. The water in north could maybe have a retention system in the back. You’d want the water feature out front probably. It’s easier to accept the west driveway where it is. If they get rid of the east entrance BZA wouldn’t be required for a variance. Daily said we had limited that to one on Sneakville but not specified as to where it would be. Lang said he doesn’t know that there will be a traffic situation there now- but with the future uses for the north property we have to consider that. He thinks there is room for modification on the site could help also. He likes the Right in Right out option. Lehman is concerned that if there are 2 out on Sneakville and if the north is bought they will be asking for another one on Stateline. Speed limit reduces right there.
Lang- motioned that the 2nd driveway as shown will be a R in and R out. The rest of the written commitments are the same. (If it is in that position then they still need a variance.) 2nd by Lehman. All eyes except for Beiersdorfer who said Nay.
7:25 PM
ADMINISTRATIVE:
DEARBORN COUNTY PROPOSED ZONING MAP and TEXT CHANGES – To review and discuss proposed ordinance amendments and updates to the Dearborn County Zoning Ordinance and Zoning Map, specifically with respect to the text(s) of: Articles 9 and 10, regarding Agricultural and Residential Zoning Districts; Article 25, regarding General Standards and new Use Development Standards; Article 27, regarding Definitions—All proposed changes will be reviewed and discussed. The proposed Zoning Map will be reviewed by the County as a whole including all the townships.
Nicole Daily passed out numerous pieces of material to the board. She told them that she told the email list that they would be possibly going over the county as a whole. She asked board if there was anything in the text that they think needed to be changed. They went to the maps and if they want to go township by township. She needs direction as to what to bring too them that they will be comfortable to vote on.
Lansing said that there are more requests from Dog Ridge and so they should start with them.
Lehman said that as he perused the cover page - he wanted people to be sure they knew about Ag Homestead is most like old Ag.????? Because of the possibility of subdividing. (But not with respect to the more intense uses)
Angie Whitaker- Kraus Rd- Wanted to highlight some reasons they want to stay as Ag. Her road does not have any of the required amenities.There is one lane road and no water or sewer there. Our entire road does not have any of these required infrastructure for Residential. This proposed zoning map for their road allows for easier development without the oversight of planning as in a zone change request. She proposes that the zone would stay as is and that a purchaser of property could request a zone change if they wanted one. This would keep current permitted uses and conditional uses that exist for them. If they want subdivisions and the Plan Commission grants it then it would be on the county to increase the infrastructure like roads and sewers. This zoning is a major change. Don’t change our zoning. Stay Ag. You can go through and see reasons why. If someone purchases they can ask for a rezone off they want it. Apologized for talking fast as she was nervous.
Kraus asked her to state what infrastructure she has there.
Angie-They have electric and fiber. (No water and no sewer)
Greg Hyland- 7687 Hyland Rd KelsoTownship - 160 acre farm and 98 acres at end of Dog Ridge -which goes back to 1870s in the family. In June 22, Nicole emailed maps as staff presented and another as requested changes. These are no longer on the website.This was corrected to it never being on website per Nicole Daily. He would like to see the requested changes from the petitioners map for their consideration. There are 11 people on that petition. Who originally came up with the original map that took Ag to Ag Homestead. That ground for over 100 years has ben farmed. Go up there now and see the soybeans harvested. Who had the bright idea to change that to Ag Homestead? Ag Homestead is a lot like Residential zoning, in my opinion. He wants to stay Ag. He read the purpose of the Ag Homestead and Ag zone. I’ve a few comments after attending these meetings for the last several months. None of the minutes of the meetings are on your website. We need them to be on there. This shouldn’t be the last item on the agenda - it’s important - should be first on the list. You need to show some leadership. Thesis going to affect the county fr next 50 -100 years. Need to show some leadership and say what is going to happen next. Nicole keeps asking what do you want me to do next? It’s time for you to say here’s the agenda, and here’s what we accomplished and here’s the updated record of what we are going to be talking about. Any questions? Kraus said he needed a minute to let that soak in. Hyland said he was passionate about this. I owe this to my ancestors- There are 5 generations of them in St. John’s cemetery. My kids know we pass this on to the family. Told his kids they are custodians from one generation to the next. Who made this map that decided what my property was to be when it has been Ag for the last 100 years or more?
Kraus - well it hasn’t been zoned Ag until 1965 when they started zoning in the county. Hyland asked again- who made the maps?
Kraus talked about when consultants started with the maps and the open publiccworkshops and Nicole Daily talked about McCormack (the former Planning Director) and Nicole had put them into the GIS formats. They were trying to talk about section and priority lines to get more accurate. They also told him the requests maps were not posted on the website.
Hyland- I think those maps and when you look at your neighbors requests need to be available.
Lehman asked what he couldn’t do if he was Ag Homestead- He said it would make it easier to subdivide if Ag Homestead. I don’t want to subdivide-I want to preserve the Ag.I don’t want any more development up in my neck of the woods.
Lehman- So you would prefer to preserve your land?
Hyland- Absolutely! That’s exactly what this area needs to be.
Kraus said, other than the subdividing it would be OK?
Hyland- In theory, yes. But once it’s all Ag Homestead what happens next? If I carved up 16 acres in 10 acre plots I could make a lot of money.And then my neighbors do the same thing. Now you need to see that there’s a bridge on Hyland Road that is limited. Well someone said make the developers pay for a new bridge. And you make them pay for a new road. Bridges are different. Angie talked about the width of Kraus Road. That’s not 2 lanes and cars cannot pass each other without one pulling over.
Kraus- I know all about Kraus Rd. <Laughter> He said his great grandfather’s place is where Angie Whitaker lives. He did find out about lack of utilities there. Kraus - what to do about the 2 acre pieces in this area?
Hyland- You can edit that out- use common sense. Look at the others we brought here- west of me is 80 acres, Joe Kraus got 40 acres, Angie Whitaker has 50 acres. Go to the people that qualify - if they have X number of acres. I’d like to see Ennis Rd , Ryland, Kraus, and Schuman Rds. - where they like to see it stay what it is. How about we move this to the top of the agenda instead of the bottom and make this as important as it is?
Jim Thatcher- asked for Angie Whitaker to come back up and he went over points in her letter that he had. There are some inconsistencies in this letter. He said he was the President of the Board of Commissioners. You wrote- Remember that the county is running our of money and is proposing massive economic growth in Kelso Township impacting our way of life. Angie- Yes.
Thatcher- I don’t know anything about that. Do you remember where you got that?
Angie - I’m not going to say.
Thatcher- One of the members said that?
Angie- I’m not going go say. She repeated that she was not going to say.
Thatcher- I can state for the record that Dearborn County is not running out of money and I don’t know where that came from. You also say you are openly against drastic changes proposed on the map, I don’t think we actually made any final decisions on that.
Angie- But you do have a proposed map.
Thatcher cutting her off- Said you wrote Dearborn County has a lot of apartments for rent and are vacant for a long time. I am not aware that we have any apartments for sale or rent in Dearborn County.Now Lawrenceburg might have some. Aurora might have some. That’s not Dearborn County- that’s Lawrenceburg.
Angie- I apologize- but Lawrenceburg is in Dearborn County.
Thatcher- You also go on to see- well let’s see- we have vacant properties for sale that remain unsold and vacant. And we have available housing and economic resources that are not being used. That’s not true.I want to correct the record because that’s just not true.We need some affordable housing in the county to be honest with you. I just wanted tp state for the record that a lot of that is not true.
Angie- OK I apologize for the miscommunication.
Charles Vogel Sp ? ?? - Gentlemen and Gentle Lady- cannot get on the website- has no computer. I need more information. Particularly for NE quadrant of the county. It has gone from green to light green. You see the list of the color codes and I need more powerful magnification to see what it is. It went from green to light green ? He kept getting server messages and into a loop with Dearborncounty.org/planning. You know how the rumor mill is, So far all I heard is bad things such as increased setbacks and ROWs. I have heard bad things about the zoning proposed. Without having to go thru a strip search to get it. I fit the profile unless I come in naked- and then I’d be arrested for other things. <Laughter>
Kraus- What about the library ?
Nicole - they aren’t there. Nicole said he could come to the office and she would provide what he needs.
Gerald- asked him to just go to Lee Herd- his neighbor
Lee Herd- representing our road -11151 North Hogan Rd Manchester- read both Ag zones. Minor residential subdivisions. My property and others don’t have infrastructure to support subdivisions that they will allow to happen. I can tell you are real tired and have to listen to us. Kraus- Ag Homestead doesn’t necessarily require all the utilities that R does. Ag would not allow subdividing.
Herd- Well that would be a positive. He asked about taxes. He asked about assessment for the various zones. The value of your property - well -
Kraus said- people will pay more for an R zoned property than Ag. Per Kraus- Ag good tillable property is brining premium dollars- just went for $17,000 an acre in St Leon. And they are planning on farming it.
Herd asked why are we doing this if we are having denser housed areas as Ag and turning Ag to something else? What is the purpose of this exercise? Why are we fiddling around with it? Kraus- There has not been a comprehensive update to the county maps since 1980. The ordinance and master plan was done in 2002-2004 and the maps stayed the same then. We are trying to make the areas be more conforming to the new ordinance and the map.
Nicole Daily looked up the Manchester map.
Lehman said the reason they have problems is in 1960 or 1965 ordinance they stripped out the main roads with R. They didn’t have the technology to do what we are doing. We are trying to get zones set for what people are actually using their properties for. So that you can control what is going on around you. Ag Homestead is a transition zone between denser development and Ag. He talked about a city center and the surrounding county areas in transitioning. That would be ideal. BUT We find hills that also affect the zones.We have to use planning principles to try to make it all work.
Herd- I like that word control- it’s amazing how people want to control other people’s properties. I moved out as far as I could to get away from the cities and towns, so less controls. I want to be able to leave my tractor in the front yard if I want to without complaints.Dennis’s father surveyed my land and he can tell you it is not flat. You are not going to get houses built on it. You might get a couple on top, but the rest of it- you’re in Gatlinberg, baby. I’m just trying to figure with all the things I’ve read. Do people get any grandfathering for what they are doing now?And there are people who are going to be affected by this.
Discussion of changing septic requirements. Minimum lot sizes for septic have been discussed per Kraus.
Held- Use all my property for beef farming and hay. Why is the Ag map not based on acreages?
Gerald got up 75 years old I don’t have 10-20m acres. Will this cost me from being able to raise beef like I have for 52 years. I have 5 acres. {Several people all talking at once }
Held- You have been doing this for 4 years and I just found out about this a week ago. What can we do except vote you out?
Kraus said- There are only 3 of us in public elected office-others are appointed.
Held- I know.
Kraus said- he had a point about the several small lots up by Rumsey Rd. It looks like they just picked out spots. With people thinking about Link 101 conspiracy theorists, people wonder if some properties are being set up? You know- people start talking- it gets in your head. He asked about Article 25— are all these words new or ..?
Kraus talked about the 4 years and some in Covid times so people did not show up for workshops maybe.
Nicole Daily told him that the majority of that was new and also changing things for state code changes. Talked about sort term rentals and tiny homes. This added definitions too. Is there any grandfathering in this? Take Gerald- he only feeds out for 45-60 days for example. Now rules are being changed.
Beiersdorfer- There are state rules too- like over 10 cow on less than 5 acres is a confined feeding. You cannot grandfather a confined feeding operation.
Held- then when you get the bigger farms subdivided- next thing you know people from the city move out and don’t want the smells etc. Restrictions never get better…. Pretty soon you are that one farm with all houses around it.
Gerald apologized about getting all upset. Kraus understood.
Charles Vogel commented again- that once they get complaints it gets bad- he found that out himself- 15 years ago most everything I was doing was illegal. <Laughter>
Phil Dabs sp?- Chapin Rd - off North Hogan- How many of you guys were raised here in Dearborn County? Do you like people telling you what to do with your stuff? Beiersdorfer- Just what I have to live with. I have my wife telling me what to do every day. <Laughter> People like the state send us letters. We need to know what is happening- we just heard about this.
Kraus told them about Travis Miller as Plan Director and future land use maps maybe.
Dabs- People move out in the county for different things. Does a big home increase property values in the neighborhood? When big homes come in it increases property values and then taxes. There are exotic animals that I raise. There are 5 bears on Chapin Rd.. If you do Ag Homestead- this will be a problem for me. You will run me out f business. He has IDEM and the state and vets there. I have had animals all my life. I don’t want to see people lose their property due to increased property values. Zoo calls him- he has more experience with cats than most zoo keepers. He wants to speak up for people around him too that aren’t here because they don’t know these changes are happening. He soon’t wan to eventually be pushed out. He would have liked to have a letter. He is a pre-existing- non-conforming use. He is zoned Ag and stays Ag, BUT he is worried about the property owners around him. If they change it affects him. He is also here to represent some of the people there who have not heard about this yet.
Kraus said- are you wanting too tell your neighbor they cannot divide?
Dabs- I think everyone should be able to decide what they want. I don’t want to have complaints about a snake or alligator. I woud have liked to have a letter- that would have been nice.
Daily- you are restricted by a lot more than our rules with what you are doing with creeks and the 100 year floodway for Wilson Creek.
Andy Baudendistel reminded the group that Zone does not determine taxes- assessor looks at use and sales does. Pre-existing, nonconforming use is teh legal term for “Grandfathering.” You can use that for complaints. Daily said they have heard of Dabs property many times in the office.Pre-existing - non-conforming use is valid for Dearborn county- not state rules.
Jeff Meinders- Presented before- missed last couple meetings. Wants the R zoning on property to stay that way and he previously presented the utility maps to Nicole Daily. He is reminding him that he is still here.
Close Public discussion.
Kraus said we need to tell Nicole how we want to move forward so we can draw this to an end. We need to decide how we are going to handle the requests. We need a decision by the end of the year.
Lang- said there are some lots that don’t conform to what we are proposing. Like one acre in an Ag. Also hearing some things that are zoned potentially R and there is no sewer or water. Is it nearby or in the halo of a reasonable extension or is it an error? If the sewer is 500 ft away that puts that question to bed. As far as the public- if people are willing to voice there opinion and especially show up repeatedly should be addressed. That should weigh heavily on our decision. No zoning that we change something to is permanent because you can come in and request a one change. If we forced people to go thru the zone change process after this or in them next year maybe have an expedited process, that’s to think about.It seems like we are circling and we have been for a while.
Hoog- How to get people notified. That is a big problem. He agrees with Eric that people who have come to the workshops etc- we need to deal with them.There are people who have limited access to internet etc. He agrees with Eric Lang on public who have been there at meetings it w=should weigh heavily in our decisions. If you change to Ag and want it to be different after this then there is a process and there is a cost for that.
Citizen in the audience discussed what he had to do to get info on this. Wanted Calendars etc on the zoning page website. Daily has an email group for people who requested to be notified of each meeting.They also wanted more detail in the maps with road names and landmarks to see where their property was.
Board and Daily specified all the ways they tried to notify the public.Daily said it would cost $15,000 to send a postcard to everyone in them county just ONE time. [ NOTE: In these modern times we have all kinds of the communication options. It is frustrating when the local paper or news is not present at these important meetings or the county does not publish a full page map and the public tells you they don’t read the paper or do not have internet access or a computer. The small turnouts in the beginning due to COVID was understandable. But then it was even more important to seek ways to communicate.
The county is pretty good at coordinating between depts. when they want to. But even county webpages are missing agendas and minutes that are easy to access.
For the zone map process- the obvious first option is to look at the one way a property owner is accessed EVERY year- the tax bill and also alternately assessment. Those envelopes could easily handle a postcard or one page letter. Then you are addressing every single property owner.
The second way is the old fashioned yard sign. Placement at strategic intersections of the county would capture residents as they go about their daily or weekly trips to school, grocery stores, errands, work, etc.
Thirdly- try a billboard or 2 ( I74 and US50)— that might be useful for many county announcements.]
Kraus- said people requesting a less intense use - he has no problem with that request. But not a way to get a free zone change to a more intense use. He wants the county to have control when requesting a more intense zoning.
Lang - agreed.
Lehman- we are in the middle of the weeds with all the text changes.We are so scare to have spot zoning that we sometimes miss the obvious. We might miss that between 2 Rs there are 25 acre plots. The zoning gas sorted dit out over past 25 years.What to do with unique situations in Lawrenceburg Township with pre-existing non-conforming uses and doesn’t get Ag, Ag Homestead, and definitely not R. How to do this without spot zoning all around Lawrenceburg.
Lang- All that spot zoning looks like something got left behind or something wasn’t thought through. I would rather have an oddly colored spot that is down zoned than if someone tried to do something with it and end up in front of us and we could make sure something crazy doesn’t happen to that property rather than try to push the envelope and we push it toward more residential. Someone then tries to do something crazy way just because they can and no one is driving the bus we end up with panhandle USA. Like a bunch I don’t look at one little odd color as being a problems long as it allows some control for that so something ridiculous doesn’t happen.
Board says they need to get their individual map changes to Nicole. (These were asked for back in the summer.) Kraus- By Friday!!!! So they can be in our next meeting.
Nicole said some have already talked to her with some of the townships. Lehman has been backed up but he will get it in. He said he will have to say Wednesday since he is always late. Kraus will have his by Thursday.
Hyland asked for when revised maps will be visible? At next meeting.
Chris Mueller- I asked if on the website before it?
Nicole- Revised maps will be on the website before the next November meeting. Nicole will do that as soon as she can.
No case for next month- so they can work on this.
Meeting adjourned at 9:10 PM
Christine Brauer Mueller
Lawrenceburg Township
