28 November 2005 Dearborn County Plan Commission Meeting Notes
Present: Mark Mitter, Chairman, Jeff Hughes, Jane Ohlmansiek, Nick Held, Robert Laws, Patrick deMaynadier, Tarry Feiss, Dennis Kraus, Jr. and Mike Hall (who arrived at 9:30 PM)
Also present: Travis Miller, Plan Director, Mark McCormack, Enforcement Officer, and Arnie McGill, Attorney.
Sugar Pine returns and after almost 2 hours gets tabled again for another 60 days.
Miller Township Augusta Dr and Stateline Road- owner Andy Temmel. Applicant Archie Crouch.
[NOTE: After a nearly 3 hour debate at the September PC meeting this same development request ended with “Hall motioned and Kraus,Jr. 2nd to table for 60 days max. to get letter substantiating sewer and connectivity issues to be resolved. All ayes to TABLE.”]
Andy Temmel made it part of the public record that Gabbard Estates was approved contingent on them getting sewage. [NOTE: When the PC or any other governmental body makes a mistake, that mistake is not legally required to be repeated.]
He also noted that VRUC has until Dec 21st to provide service. If not then Temmel can request their part of the CTA be revoked and go elsewhere. (Probably to Greendale via Sugar Ridge)
A turnaround has been implemented to address some connectivity issues.
Staff presented OKI’s letter showing their lack of approval of a PACKAGE PLANT for VRUC under their Water Quality Management Authority. [NOTE: Perhaps the DCRSD and commissioners need to remember that there are other rules in place to protect the county from the package plant proliferation fears they cited in their haste to create a county-wide district with no “means” to manage it.]
Six citizens spoke on this issue.
The first (I missed his name) spoke regarding the detention ponds and drainage issues.
Jim Maupin- reminded the board that school crowding, Stateline traffic and safety issues, and the sewage was of EQUAL importance in the decision, even though it seems mostly focused on sewage now. The process is continuing at HVL to stop the VRUC treatment plant.
Jerry Jacobsen stated that VRUC has NO capacity- and Greendale has no capacity and will take a couple years to get a pipeline. He noted that VRUC’s att’y’s (Parvin Price) letter contained half-truths and was discombobulated. There is no sewage that you can count on now.
Maria LaRosa- provided a follow-up letter from the DCRSD and signed petitions objecting to the VRUC board. She noted that the sewage situation is very unstable. VRUC did not attend the last DCRSD meeting and so they have NOT JOINED DCRSD. They don’t think it’s a good idea to run a pipe parallel to the one Greendale already has installed. The proposed new VRUC board is going to negotiate with Greendale to get netter rates than those previously mandated. They do not think a sewage treatment plant in HVL is an option.
Floyd Ogden- (VRUC)- stated that they are negotiating with DCRSD and have signed a letter of understanding and is assured that they will have capacity through Lawrenceburg. He has no written statement of this.
Mitter suggested that the residents go to school boards and voice concerns about overcrowding and tax increases. The school letters provided to the PC state that they will serve these students.
Maupin asked- “Doesn’t our testimony matter?” [NOTE: Saying it and proving it are two different things. Providing numbers showing the class sizes and data on taxation increases would be considered proper testimony in this matter. Anecdotal information is not proof.]
Mitter noted that VRUC has jurisdiction, but no capacity.
DeMaynadier noted that on the Nov 18, 2004 Gabbard Estates question it was not relevant as a precedent because there was existing capacity. In this case there is no existing capacity. He notes that in the current master plan it states they should encourage new development only where there is adequate EXISTING infrastructure capacity. “Existing” is all over the master plan. You may have financial ability, lawful power and authority, but you still do not have any capacity that exists.
Feiss sees that Greendale was willing 18 months ago to provide and that there are three different developers who have tried to do this property. [NOTE: Greendale has finished several commercial projects and taken on Sugar Ridge in this time frame- there may be some capacity issues now. They need to ask Greendale]
Held agrees with deMaynadier- maybe in the future, but it’s not a sure thing now.
Hughes- Stateline Road is on the transportation Plan- not getting done fast enough. Parents are responsible for their children’s education- the PC has no jurisdiction over the schools. The master plan has a lot of info on all of this. He’s just beginning to understand how OKI and all of this works.
McGill – (att’y for PC) explained the OKI position on this plant.
Ohlmansiek- still doesn’t think we fulfilled 216-16 of the Subdivision ordinance- regarding the utility letters.
Laws- thinks VRUC did give a letter. Wants to trust that letter. [NOTE: Yikes! Why?]
Kraus, Jr.- look at the whole picture- developer is caught between two utilities- it isn’t fair. He’s tried. [NOTE: This is what developers should do- they research the options first.]
Kraus, Jr.-Sewer will eventually get there, but won’t be there until the need arises probably. We have to trust the school boards. Stateline Road is to be worked on this summer?? The traffic study suggested a number of improvements including turn lanes.
[NOTE: Where’s the logic here? PC is to uphold the master plan. If the sewer isn’t there yet, then both the master plan and the subdivision ordinance are not fulfilled.]De Maynadier- Pace and place- infrastructure first and development second.
Mitter- Letter says one thing and evidence says another. We have no way of knowing when and if it is going in.
Sammy Gutzwiller- asked to speak- stated she was just getting over walking pneumonia and was a bit shaky. She said she wears a dual hat- a VRUC board member for 9 ½ years and also represents the developer coming in. [NOTE: Is that ethical?] VRUC has no option- Greendale said they weren’t going to continue to provide sewer service. They spent $150,000 and 3 years later they still weren’t able to join SDRSD. They are now under orders from IURC to build a plant.
Kraus, Jr.- This is a member of the board of directors of VRUC and she’s saying they can provide it. [Note: Is there selective hearing going on here?]
Mitter- OKI is opposed to a package plant being built.
Sammy Gutzwiller- we have to have the plant.
Mitter- We’re being asked to base a decision on an “I don’t know.” He then asked Temmel to explain the detention pond question for the first resident. Temmel explained that it would be mounded and spread out for slow release of water. They intended to keep as many trees as possible.
Ralph Thompson asked to speak. He addressed the Gabbard Estates question- stating that DCRSD has no capacity. He feels that Gabbard Estates was a mistake and asked that they not repeat that mistake. He also noted that the state law states that schools have to take the students- so those letters from schools are going to say that. [NOTE: But a letter saying, we have 30 kids in a class now and no more space for classrooms right now without building more- or saying that they have room in elementary but are short in junior high, etc. as an example - would go a long way toward giving the board an idea of the issues.]
It took four motions to finally get a decision. Motion to Deny failed, motion to approve failed, motion to table for more info on OKI failed /rescinded, and final motion Laws motioned and Feiss 2nd to table for 60 days to get additional NEW information. All ayes.
1. Primary approval for a 2 –lot subdivision- Rosewood Industrial Park- SR1 Kelso Township 2.009 acres H-1 zone. Owner Rosewood Family Ltd, Applicant JDJ Surveying (Jeff Stenger) Maxwell presenting for UCB Bank office. EG McLaughlin and Bill Ritzmann present for UCB.
[NOTE:There is approximately 20 acres in phase one of this park. The “Frey property” contains nearly 149 acres total as mapped out on the main plat.]
There were no sewer letters in the file, though it was discussed at tech review. St. Leon services that area (between BP and the new school)
No public comment.
Kraus, Jr. motioned and Hughes 2nd to approve all variances and not require sidewalks until it extends beyond this section. Decision is contingent on getting a utility letter within 60 days and meeting all staff recommendations. 5 Ayes and 2 Nays (Held and Feiss voted Nay because it would be inconsistent to pass this without the letter) Chair did not vote.
[NOTE: Held and Feiss were right. Staff let this one and two more come in tonight with items missing from the packet that are required. Transition with new hiring in the office may have left some of this slip thru the cracks. Miller intends to tighten that up with training.]
2. Primary approval for a 2-lot sub’n on 28.7 acres–Beraurer Estates- Manchester Township Weisburg Road. Owner Norbert Beraurer, applicant Dennis Kraus, Jr.
Kraus, Jr. stepped down for this application and the next one.
Mike Hall arrived for this.
This is the 11th and 12th division of the parent tract. The preliminary report from the Health Dept was not received. Discussed at Tech review, but no letter from Doug Baer. DeMaynadier motioned and Hughes 2nd to approve with staff recommendations and contingent on the Health Dept letter being received. Approved with 2 Nays again- Held and Feiss- for consistency issues. Chair did not vote.
3. Primary approval for a 5-lot minor subdivision on 73 acres with a variance for driveway spacing on Sawdon Ridge Road Miller Township. Owner Tim Schaefer and applicant Dennis Kraus, Jr. Evidence of septic review on plat but no letter from Doug Baer again.
Ohlmansiek motioned and deMaynadier 2nd for 18 ft variance for driveway and direct access to Sawdon Ridge Road. Approved.
4. Request from Commissioners to consider changing the Sub’n Ordinance to remove the parent tract language in Article 2 Section 200. Hughes was worried about hardship on 1-2 lots. They will look into Butler County and some surrounding areas to see how this is handled and the potential effects.
2006 meeting schedule was approved.
Hall and Feiss will be the members to attend the CAC (Community Advisory Committee) meeting for the Connector Project. Apparently INDOT now that it is REFORMED is going to get citizen advisory input on projects. This project is getting it very late in the project due to the change in INDOT occurring after they’d gotten to the environmental stages. First meeting will be likely next week.
Land Use workshop results were presented BRIEFLY and a composite of the 4 maps is being devised using GIS and a scoring technique that required at least ¾ agreeing to get that land use featured on the draft map that will go to the public in Jan or February for Public Input.
[NOTE: There was lengthy discussion in the administrative section of what “available” means. Mitter used a dictionary- stating it meant usable or accessible. How can you use or access something that doesn’t exist? He noted that Held and Feiss had a point withholding approval on several applications. He noted that staff needs to be sure that all data is in or the applicant should NOT be on the agenda. Kathy Scott, citizen, noted that it is not the PC’s job to fix it for the developer. They are in business and they should research things first. In regards to issues with Baer’s slow production of needed septic letters, it would seem that if the sites were approved and the tech work was done and on the plat, then a form letter with that stapled to it, might speed it up. Or else he needs to stop wearing so many hats that he can’t get his work done. Does the health dept. need to upgrade staffing?]
Meeting adjourned 11:55 PM
Christine Brauer Mueller