Tuesday, February 26, 2008

25 February 2008 Dearborn County Plan Commission Meeting Notes

25 February 2008 Dearborn County Plan Commission Meeting Notes

Present: Hall, Chairman, Kraus, Jr., Beiersdorfer, Laws, Lehman, Lansing, Thompson, Held, and Nelson.

Also present: McGill, Attorney, McCormack, Plan Director, and Listerman, Transportation Director.

The room was about 2/3 full.

D-1 Commissioner candidate Kathy Scott was present.

Primary Approval for 75-lot subdivision (White Pines) on North Dearborn, Short, and Gaynor Ridge Roads in Logan Township on 56 acres. Zone change was approved to Residential from Ag previously. Owner is White Farm Development (Tucker and Schmidt were present) and the surveyor was JDJ Surveying (Jeff Stenger)

McCormack presented the tech review and staff report. He also showed pictures of the area to bring the 3 new board members up to speed. Aerial shots of the new layout showed a density that was far different from the surrounding lands on 3 sides. The main thrust of the staff report and Tucker’s presentation was how to buffer the surrounding neighbors from the new subdivision. [NOTE: This seems to indicate that everyone “knows” this is a different animal from its neighbors.]

Because of the 100 ft frontage on lots, curb and gutter is not required but sidewalks are required on one side of the main streets. A variance was being sought for phasing of the subdivision. Thompson asked about buffering in the bowed out area of the plat along North Dearborn Road and sight distance. It will be done so that sight distance will not be impaired. The lot owners will be maintaining the trees and buffer yards. Tucker is staying away from HOA- as people don’t seem to want to have them.

Tucker said they did NOT show the 100 ft buffer yard- as they think the owner could put in a patio or basketball goal that would get into it. They think the lot owner should have right of appeal to BZA for variance for such things. [NOTE: Are the reneging on a desired buffer?]
Their buffer is actually a 60 ft setback after the 30 ft ROW. (That adds to 90- not 100) Tucker showed pictures of serpentine and intermittent mounds with trees to illustrate what they have in mind. He thinks they can do a really good job of fixing sight distance issues. They will need a service road for St, Leon to access their lift station about once a week. It will be fenced around the lift station.

Hall asked him to set the buffer wider at Short and Gaynor and Short and North Dearborn to be sure sight distance works. Tucker said it wouldn’t be a problem as there is detention there also.
[NOTE: The county side seems to want adequate buffers and the subdividers want to leave options for the owners. The owners need to be buffered from the farm uses around them- it would be a vital amenity to get that buffer yard right.]

Stenger told the board there will be 2-14 lots on pressure sewer- the rest will be gravity- depending on St. Leon. Listerman advised Thompson and the board that boring under the road to access sewer was not a problem.

Tucker plans intermittent white board fencing. Hall said 2 trees per lot (100 ft) seems sparse. Tucker said they will be spruce, pine, and deciduous like pears. He doesn’t want a wall of trees as that would be uninteresting. [NOTE: Even when a spruce is mature in a windbreak at 15-20 ft spacing- 2 trees would cover only 40 ft. of the 100 ft area.]

Beiersdorfer reminded them that the shallow roots systems of pines don’t do well on mounds, as the recent drought illustrated. Tucker will use conservation officers and covenants to keep the kids from taking four wheelers over the mounds. Answering Nelson- Tucker said he’s staying away from HOA.

Stenger said they want 3-4 phases to help steer traffic to North Dearborn- they won’t open the Gaynor Ridge intersection till about half built out. [NOTE: This is where road bonds etc get into trouble. This variance needs to be really looked at carefully. People might be trained off Gaynor Ridge at first, but once that is open- it won’t matter. All that “training” will be gone. I would say that is not an adequate reason to NOT build that through street in the beginning.]

Tucker told Laws the lifetime for the phases is 5-7 years.

McCormack cited section 2516 on accessory buildings to clarify some points with the board. Stenger noted the front yards face the NEW streets- so the back yards are what the existing streets will view. He said all lots have at least 80 ft from the centerline of the road as setback. [NOTE: Now it’s just a 50 ft setback- above it was a 60 ft from the ROW end. This buffer yard number seems to be bouncing around a lot.]

Nelson thinks the 8x10 sheds won’t be a problem- we made them have internal streets- don’t dink them on this. Thompson noted that though this is already approved- this is the problem with compatibility in high-density situations.


Glen Crocker- 38 year resident of Short Road. The vote was 5-4 by the PC and 2-1 by the commissioners to rezone this and it did stick a knife in rural Dearborn County. The example pictures of buffers are good looking- they show more than 2 trees. You have to make this look good because it’s an area of high visual impact. I’m not sure about the deciduous trees- but that’s my personal opinion. I don’t want a fence around the whole thing- that would be ugly. Lots 47-56 are in an area that is completely wooded now- how is this going to save greenspace? Hopes they can preserve many of these trees. Make sure this gets maintained- like the sidewalks.
Crocker also advised them of the actual location of the sewer lines- as being ½ way down Short Rd on his side. (St. Leon is in error)
He ended saying it was hard to grab a hold of this setting right in the middle of RURAL Dearborn County. We want to be a good neighbor- make it LOOK good…

Todd Schumate- resident of Gaynor Ridge. Minimize the impact and make it look right. This area has high travel and high visibility. The outbuildings should have the same fa├žade as the home. It should look clean. Schumate doesn’t want vinyl sides- showed the example of the one buckling in high temperatures at Harley Springs with one window and door on the whole side of siding.
He said curbs and gutters will prevent parking in the front lots and county has no parking on their roads – which is helpful to emergency and fire equipment. Be mindful of us having to turn fire trucks around. We don’t want 10 years of dirt and dust around us during construction. Would like to see no wood burning stoves in the covenants- a health issue. Who will replace trees if they die?

Bob Gaynor- these were to be ¾-acre lots. I see 16 at ¾, 29 at ½ and 30 between ½ and ¾ acres. Who will maintain the retention areas? Listerman and Thompson said- the property owner or HOA if there is one.
Gaynor is not sure about the mounds- 3 ft isn’t going to do it, especially on a 2-story house. There are 26 homes on the outer perimeter- he wants a decorative fence there as a protection for the kids playing. Noted that cars travel faster than speed limit out there. Treat the backyards the same as the front yards- make it look nice.

Tom Gaynor- Farmland is adjacent- still concerned about traffic- the fence is a good idea. Where did all the green space go? Where will the kids play?

Steve Kuhn- Gaynor Ridge- most is already covered- his big concern is the visual impact- don’t know of any other subdivisions in the county bounded by 3 roads like this. Concerned for the safety of the neighbor kids. Make the fence look like a prize- not an eyesore.

Kathy Scott- Heard about covenants- will this have a Homeowners association (HOA)? Who will bear the cost of the sewer extension and lift station? Hall said the developer would.

Lydia Schumate- Doesn’t think 3- ft mounds will be enough. Fence with trees on both sides of it would look somewhat woodsy. Worried about lights form homes and cars driving in and noise. We’ll have to deal with that. They need to remember we still farm and they will have to adjust to that and the smells etc.


Thompson- Could have a hodge podge of fencing styles. Who will enforce retention? Who will keep mounds and trees?

McCormack- Enforcement after build out will be complaint based.

Tucker- The other lot owners will enforce the covenants (in court). He will address the maintenance and fencing issues in the covenants.

Listerman- Traffic speed calculations and the sight triangle will be worked on in the improvement plan.

Tucker- How about 4 trees average per lot?

Lansing- 3-foot mound- standard?

Tucker- actually 3-5 feet. More than that looks like a wall. There may be some vinyl homes- they can look nice. I live in an all vinyl home- that was the style. Sheds can match the homes color scheme.

Stenger- Owners will do regular maintenance on the detention ponds- but if it blows out- the subdivision community will have to help repair.

Tucker- Brookstone Way is 9 years old with no problems- Tucker cleaned it before the county took over roads. Also Old Orchard.

Stenger- You should put in an Ag covenant to say that the subdivision buyers can’t complain about adjacent Ag uses. They do that in Ripley and Franklin.

THOMPSON moved and NELSON 2nd to approve the primary plat based on:
1. An average of 4 trees /lot in the buffer
2. Controls by covenant or HOA for uniformity of fencing and
3. Retention of character of the buffer
4. Repair and maintenance of the detention by the developer until buildout is complete,
5. Sidewalks on one side
6. Service lane to the lift station
7. Requirement for architectural review by the developer of the primary structure
8. Ag Covenant(as described by Stenger)
9. Accessory buildings to match the residence in color scheme
10. Sanitary sewer lines to be run inside the development rather than on adjacent property as on the west side of Conifer Court- unless St, Leon provides a sound reason
11. Require a buffer on the east side of the subdivision
12. Have an appropriate way to prevent leakage should the lift station fail and thus protect the pond to the east.
All ayes- Passed.

The variance for phasing the development was questioned by Thompson as not fulfilling the requirements. They were all over the problem of the Gaynor Ridge intersection being opened and when. This was tabled until March until Tucker has plans.

Subdivision ordinance changes tabled until March.

First bond report given to board.
Financial guarantee steps- have a fireproof safe for these documents.
Kate Rademacher is sending series of letters to get the bonds updated. They mentioned Old Orchard bonds lapsed and they have NOT withheld permits for this. [NOTE: Why not?]

The Sugar Ridge mess was mentioned also

Comp Plan – McCormack is still trying to keep discussions going with Fox and Hughes.

Fiscal Impact Study is proceeding at OKI

Kraus Jr. complained about fees for small splits as being excessive when attached to the $100 for the original panhandle. He’s talking about corrections of slivers of land. McCormack is authorized to waive those fees.

Meeting adjourned at 10:30 PM

Christine Brauer Mueller
Lawrenceburg Township


Anonymous said...

Logan Township needs more hog farms.

Anonymous said...

Farms next to proposed subdivisions beware. Your new goal in life is to provide rural-like landscapes for these proposed subdivisions view. But don't be caught spraying your fields, tilling up dirt and dust, having "noisy" bovines in estrus, or anything else "farm" related including allowing hunters on your land that might scare your new neighbors or might be considered a nuisance to your new neighbors and fodder for a few corrupt developers and their shysters to run you off your land. Just shut up and look pretty.

Vlad Dracula said...

Firstly: Well Tucker wants to stay away from Home Owners Assaociations. You can't blame him the residents will have to pay for the HOA and its projects. They might decide not to buy one of his houses. Aw damn!

Think of a family living on the financial edge, big mortgage two cars, riding mower, ATV etc suddnely loses it's income by illness, job loss or a divorce. So they can't pay their HOA fees,then what?

Secondly: If convenants may have to be forced upon people in court one can envision endless law suits of neighbor against neighbor. That gets a bit expensive for all but the richboy developers. It has happened frequently.

Thirdly: How is this proposed subdivision going to help Dearborn County?

Fourthly: Are the folks who buy into this subdivision going to pay enough income tax to the state and property taxes to the county to carry an adaquet share for their kids' schooling,for roads and services of all types?

Let's forget this nonsense!

Anonymous said...

"Farms next to proposed subdivisions beware."

Make the developers fence in the entire subdvision so the surrounding farmers and property owners don't have to fence them out. It gets real dicey when the subdivision home owners think and use the farmers property as their private park!

Anonymous said...

We have a housing glut in this county, homes are not being sold because of the mortgage crisis, so let's rezone more rural land for subdivisions, after the "right" people buy up the rural land at rural land prices, of course.

Anonymous said...

Housing glut?

Like below?

New Figures Show Slower Home Sales In SEI
(Aurora, IN) - Fewer homes were sold in January in Dearborn, Ripley, Ohio, and Switzerland counties.

The Southeastern Indiana Board of Realtors says home sales were down 9.6 percent.

A total of 58 homes were sold in the four counties last month.

Unlike the rest of Greater Cincinnati, southeast Indiana’s average sale price grew 1.2 percent to just over $122,000.

Greater Cincinnati as a whole saw home sales drop 18.3 percent last month and the average price dropped two percent.

To listen to our local realtor/developer whiners:

"Our "kids have no place to sell homes that our forcibly subsidized by the rest of us!"

Or so goes those bemoaning theirs' and their heirs's rightful entitlements to due "well" even in times of downturns in their chosen professions!

Anonymous said...

heirs's = heirs'

due = do

And corrupt realtor/developers will always = corrupt realtor/developers...not to mention their shysters and other poltically and other corrupt enablers...

Anonymous said...

We need further construction of homes in this county on land bought up cheap by politically connected developers to further undercut the value of homes of residents of this county trying to sell their homes. Yeah. That's the ticket. We need to help the residents of this county, but only the very few residents of this county, those very few residents who run in the same social circles of the very few residents of this county, those very few residents who believe the rest of us residents only exist to ensure their profits. Yeah. That's the ticket.

Anonymous said...

"Yeah. That's the ticket."

Remember the good, honest days of this County, before the crooks and their lame-brained and hungry followers took charge?

No one needed a "ticket!"

Anonymous said...

Kathy Scott will approve of your
hog farms if elected.

Anonymous said...

Kathy Scott will approve of your
hog farms if elected.

But will Kathy approve of every farm purchased by those who are on the boards of the DCRSD and their like to rezone such land to residential or commercial?

Since the only reason our sham newly invented sewer concerns exist in this county is to profit those who control them, at everyone else's expense.

For that is the DCEDI way, is it not?

Anonymous said...

Don't vote for Kathy Scott!!! She may encourage other, non-realtor/developer/banker/shyster types to think they have a "say so" in this county. We cannot have that. What will Massa Maxwell and Massa Ewbank say? They may scold their field workers, Gary, Rick and Jeff!

Anonymous said...

"Kathy Scott?

Kathy Scott?

I did not know she was in the race!"

So will say Johnny Nugent when Kathy Scott beats out Johnny's endorsed development candidate, Jeff Hughes.

Anonymous said...

Quit picking on Johnny nugent!

He is old and lost!

He has been bamboozled into supporting a plan for "growth" of this County that leaves out 99% of those who live in this County!

Johnny has been asorbed into the same mash the likes of Vera, Rick and Jeff have been so absorbed!

Johnny only holds on because of his length of term of public office!

But his hold on his office has become tenuous at best!

The good ole boy control of the local Republican power base is long in the tooth and past its best and heady days!

Anonymous said...

It is hard to picture a Lisa Lehner or Bob Ewbank chewing on Kathy Scott's ear during a Commissioners' Meeting and Kathy regurgitating what was just whispered into her ear for the record.

So ladies and gentlemen, look for the Lehner/Ewbank type of tacit endorsement during this year’s elections…and vote against whomever they seem to be leaning towards.

Anonymous said...

What fruit will our republican leadership offer us all in the general election?

Will it once again have a strange and bitter smell?

Unfit for consumption by honest and non-corrupt republican consumers?

Anonymous said...

But will Kathy approve of every farm purchased by those who are on the boards of the DCRSD and their like to rezone such land to residential or commercial?

Hell no and you know it.

This woman who is a registered nurse, an emergency room nurse, and has run a business with a large budget will be a good Commissioner.

Think of her ability this way:
She does more good during one 12 hours shift in the Emergency Room than does the combined lifetime efforts of the members of Central Republican Committee.

Anonymous said...

How about Hoog instead of Fox? Can a Democrat win against the "machine?"

Anonymous said...

The "machine" no longer exists!

It imploded shortly last commissioners' race when the republican leadership threw their primary voters under the bus to support development at any taxpayer cost!

Anonymous said...

The only way Hoog could lose against Fox is if Ewbank and Morris personally campaign for Hoog.

Anonymous said...

jake Hoog a decent gentleman with fine relatives throughout the second district needs everyone's help to defeat Fox, Fox a favaorite of John Nugent.

Never mind that Hoog is a democrat he is the rigth sort of candidate for Commish. Think of this:
JakeHoog versus John nugent, oops I mean Ricky Fox.

Hoog will do right for the citizens of Dearborn County. If we can get him in and Kathy Scott in the RINOs of Lawrenceburg will turn into a bunch of former grasping black hat types. They may have to go find a real day job.

Go Jake
Go kathy

Anonymous said...

Maybe the republican leadership can have their flunkies give away their John Zeiden CD they seem so anxious to play for anyone that may give a dollar for their forced sewer hook-up scam!!!

The CD can be in little “VOTE FOR THE MAXWELL’S TWINS” baggies!!!

Anonymous said...

Good thing Scott is a nurse, Ewbank is going to need one election night.

Anonymous said...

Don't forget the new candidates for Council! Along with Kathy and Jake, vote for Holland and Hammond. Let's get rid of Charlie the Tax Dollar Fairy along with Fox and Hughes!

We need people in office who care about the County, not what they can get out of the County!

Anonymous said...

How about Phil Darling for Council too!

Anonymous said...

I'm voting the straight "Honest" ticket this year!

Scott, Hammond, Holland, Hoog, Darling and all other "Honest" candidates will have my vote!

Anonymous said...

It's good to see something was approved in the County of Dearborn.

Anonymous said...

It's good to see something was approved in the County of Dearborn.

Anonymous said...

It's good to see something was approved in the County of Dearborn.


I guess the "anti-everything" and "do-nothing" label a few corrupt politicians tried to use to sully Thompson's candidicy was just political B.S. by those trying to keep "complete" control of the County Political Process!

Now, how about that Comp. Plan?

Hughes and Fox need to get off their butts and approve it!

Anonymous said...

Didn't Holland just get out of jail for cutting his neighbors phone line?

Anonymous said...

Now, how about that Comp. Plan?

Thanks, Chris.

Anonymous said...

"Thanks, Chris."

My name is not Chris, nor Pat, nor any other androgynous sort of name, but thanks for your contribution, feigning some sort of inside knowledge as to who you may think I may be.

Keep up with your intuitions, you guarantee your camp’s loss in this year’s elections.

Again, thank you for all your efforts.

Anonymous said...

Again, Thanks Chris.

Anonymous said...

"Again, Thanks Chris."

Wow...thank you for your promise to follow your lame intuitions.

We cannot fail this election cycle.

By the way, I never met Chris...ever.

But please keep enriching us all with your great wit and insight.

May you find great happiness with your future of being outside looking in on this County's workings...

...may all your clients learn of your failings.

Anonymous said...

"Again, Thanks Chris."

You do know that that Chris Mueller is probably at some other a sundry county meeting doing her best to sabotage you dishonest crooks as we type. Do you not? But keep up with your nonsense. You only hurt your bank account that you so love and cherish over all else.

Anonymous said...

agan: tanks kriss

mees ans rik aint no wayed fulled

mista eubank reely haites u soo munch

y's u allways getten en hes ways

cans hes trows thumbs krumbs yur's weighs

hees mity genuous

if'n yoos doo wats hees asskin

Anonymous said...

Is Kathy Scott the one who sued the County and won?

bet all taxpayors love that.

The tax payors money went for that
what was that all about?

Anonymous said...

Is Kathy Scott the one who sued the County and won?

Mrs. White won against the County also.

We cannot have citizens standing up to our corrupt development controlled County government, can we!

It may give our development crooks pause!

Anonymous said...

"bet all taxpayors love that."

How much money did the taxpayers pay for Lisa Lehner to set up the swine entity that is the DCRSD?

I bet all the "taxpayors" loved that.

Anonymous said...

How much money are the taxpayers still paying Vera Benning after they booted her from office?

Anonymous said...

Booted out the front door, allowed to slither back through the rear door.

We do need a change of leadership in this county.

Anonymous said...

Is Kathy Scott the one who sued the County and won?

What's with all this misinformation? Seems like someone needs to check their facts.
Fact: The complaint about the Dorothy White sign that started the taxpayer expense was filed by Maxwell.

Anonymous said...

How dare Dorothy White stand up to Maxwell's owned Dearborn County and gelded apparatus!

Did not Dorothy get the memo?

Maxwell is supposed to be untouchable!




Ad Hominem

And all that...don’t you know.

Right Bob?

By the way, Bob, watch out for Maxwell sudden stops, you would not want to end up in the E.R. with Maxwell's butt cheeks around your swollen head!

Anonymous said...

"Land bought cheap"

The various postings in this blog refer to developers buying land cheaply. I've been told Tucker paid $1.5 million for the Short Road property. I think that's some damn expensive farm land!

Anonymous said...

Because someone pays top dollar for a farm, because he is speculating he can get it rezoned, does that mean we owe him the rezoning? No. Do all his neighbors need to capitulate in his turning their rural community into a subdivision? No.

Anonymous said...

I heard Maxwell dropped out of the bidding on that farm- it was too pricey.

Anonymous said...

I heard Maxwell dropped out of the bidding on that farm- it was too pricey.

Now that Maxwell is on the DCRSD's board, I don't see him being out-bid by any non-connected developer who does not have the power to sewer or not sewer such property.

The DCRSD in action, as planned.

Thanks, Vera, Rick and Jeff for your efforts.

You did your Masters proud.

Your Masters thank their lesser gods every day for not instilling I.Q.s in you higher than that of a clan of snails.

HHM said...

"How much money did the taxpayers pay for Lisa Lehner to set up the swine entity that is the DCRSD?"

Don't know how much she made setting it up, while also being County Attorney; but, after she set the DCRSD up, she collected almost $100,000 as the attorney for DCRSD.